My problems with LAW

[Bearhug Goddess]

Ok so, in a month and few days it will be 4 years I joined LAW and it's time to talk a bit about it (yeah I know i've been venting a lot recently but this time i'd talk about everything)

First, let's talk about my experience as an user and roleplayer. Honestly pretty well, i've met a lot of great person, friends and people I really like and respect. Of course there is some people I dislike but, heh, can't love and be loved by everyone. Still, there is a big problem about some users being inactive or leaving LAW a way to early, not saying that's a bad thing but, there is almost no more ACTIVE veteran here. We all have a life and stuff, that's completly fine, but the issue is when there is new users. I have the impression that not all new users are accepted and people don't want to interact or rp with them, that's a huge problem because these news users only rp between them and can't get in others storylines, build more relationship between OCs (in universe) or stuff. I really feel like veterans are roleplaying together, wich is fine because of course you'd enjoy more a thread with a friend or someone who have more experience in rp, but I'm not sure if it was also like that few years ago when YOU joined the server. Plus it will make the forum looks more active, that could avoid people leaving LAW because they don't find anything interesting or go for AFW instead.
Side note : There is a ton of users that doesn't want their characters to lose and just go for a 100% winrate (when I remember reading a 80% winrate rule for your character), it can be frustrating if a new user plan to make a rising star or a wrestler that can become stronger with time, kinda feel like because there is less people talking in LAW's discord there is less friendship and less storylines for new people. I kinda feel bad for most of new user the last year just getting a lose for their first RP and "deal with it, no there is no rematch nor a win trade back".

Secondly, the events. Since i'm there, i've seen 11 events. That's a lot and not a lot too in some viewpoint but that's not the debate I want to talk about, why is there no more small events like the Last Woman Standing tournament ? I remember also seen a big Royal Rumble made before I joined LAW, why there is no more stuff like that ? I also don't remember seeing a tournament made for a specific thing, like I dunno, young lionness ? Maybe i'm just asking too much by wanting more small events so more people can participate or build a story from this. (Still, big respect to all event coordinator, it really seems stressful and take a lot of time to manage events).

That lend to a third point, something i've been talking a loooooot these weeks, titles and contenders. I'm a bit (really) upset about how it is managed and how the rules are just there to decorate. I can understand some unplanned stuff like a user suddenly become inactive (tho for some of them it's weird weird to suddenly want an inactive user as the next champ because he planned to return, some bros has been inactive for 2/3 years if no more and suddenly came back to be champ ? heh.) or something, but still in 6 months you have the time to find an alternative. For those who doesnt know, the rule says you have to say to Winner your plan for the end of your reign at 1.5 year (irl time) of your reign so you can lose it around the 2 years (the last match should start BEFORE the 2 years btw). There is litteraly no excuse for that because nothing force you to get get the full 2 years reign, if you think you need a two year reign to feel memorable to people you're miserable. It leads to a second problem, also in relation with the first problem, the contenders are the same. How is that possible that in 4 years, i've seen few people having their first time as a contender, some never and some of them have been contenders in ALMOST all the belt in the last two years. Again, i'm not saying to be friend with everyone but make it feel interesting for other people, I'm not sure if new users would be interested to be a part of LAW's story in the next years because of that. Also, it would be great if the championship page are updated by the concerned users, that's the minimum work you could do to give a legacy in LAW. Also also, wouldn't it be more logical to plan PPVs and event around the title reign ? I'm pretty sure the first match of a new champ and the last match of champ should be a MAIN EVENT. It's maybe just my opinions but the rules should be applied to everyone equally and people have no right to vent about the rules being applied, mhhhhh ?

Now the final problem, sorry for that but, the management in LAW is really weird. Nothing against Winner, but he's clearly not able to do everything. We need someone to help him and make some decision in LAW, like applying the rules when it should be, character approval, know if a faceclaim is available or not, NUKING BOTS MAKING FAKE THREADS, ect ect. I'm mostly asking for a mod in the forum, the discord already have enough mod (even if they're almost never here or there is some time with no mod active because of the timezone) and there is not a lot of problem in the discord (I mean, look at us we're litteraly 5/6 at best to talk regulary there). I'm not saying Winner is uncapable to do thing properly, i'm sure he's trying his best to make everyone happy but sometime we need to be clear and settle things, even if it will disapoint few people they had nothing to say because the rules are the rules. I thought CaptainL was kinda this role when Winner isnt there but he's not there anymore, what happened between them and Winner worry me and I'd love to say I don't care and it's not my life but when it mess with LAWs forum it concern all of us.

To resume everything, I feel like LAW is dying little by little and nobody talks about it or are worried ??? The lack of interaction between veteran and new users, the lack of small and quick events or bigger ones, some inactive user that were planned for big stuff but delay everything because of their activities and the lack of decisions by the mod(s?). I have no "good" answer for all of these problems, i'm just a regular LAW user that care about the future of LAW and keep loving the forum even if I heard some weird stuff about it and almost everyone around me says "LAW ? There is a lot of drama there isnt it ?". I just want things to get better and see everyone having a good time there and enjoy.

(Unrelated note : There is a lot of emotes that are never used or are from users who leaved LAW, are they considered as legacy or we can delete some of them and replace them by emotes from current users ???)

Some funny internet image to chill the mood

[anime_hentaifighter]

Think the last woman standing tournament was done by someone else , but you can always come up with new events. Think you got the mind for it my friend

You did bring up an few good points.

[Blade ocs]

Sounds like we need a time limit on people who have titles but go inactive. I do feel like 2 year begin is a bit to long to be hosnet. I thought that was just the norm. Maybe it should be 1 year max maybe a year and a half?

For the mod thing for the site. The best to solve it in my opinion is to try to get more mods who are active like. No idea if I would be a veteran or not but i do threads with new comers win and lose. Heck I help got mma/boxing going. Otherwise i think tye veterans have preferences to rp with who they want. It wouldn't hurt if they did. That is up to them but if they don't mind it would help.

I had no idea wr have has AI thread issues. I never thought we had bots.

[Ichi]

New Users
I think you brought up some important points about new users being included and being given RP opportunities. Admittedly, I do not know how to address these matters. However, I think it a good starting point would be to try to compile more information on these matters. Impressions are certainly valid, but having clearer information can help guide action.

I have some more detailed thoughts on this general topic, which I have put in the spoiler below.

Spoiler

I have the impression that not all new users are accepted and people don't want to interact or rp with them, that's a huge problem because these news users only rp between them and can't get in others storylines, build more relationship between OCs (in universe) or stuff. I really feel like veterans are roleplaying together, wich is fine because of course you'd enjoy more a thread with a friend or someone who have more experience in rp . . .

I think this is a very valid concern, and I would not be surprised if this was an issue in LAW. I believe this issue should NOT be ignored.

Unfortunately, this particular issue is a very tricky one to address. A very similar issue was discussed in the thread that (I believe) precipitated LAW's split from AFW, but no concrete resolution was reached. There are two reasonable values that end up conflicting with this sort of issue: new users should be included in the community, and that no one should be compelled to roleplay with anyone.

Of course, the issue being complex does not mean that one should not discuss or attempt to remedy it—the lack of a straightforward solution does not imply that one should not work towards a solution.

There is a ton of users that doesn't want their characters to lose . . . it can be frustrating if a new user plan to make a rising star or a wrestler that can become stronger with time[. I] kinda feel like . . . there is less friendship and less storylines for new people. I kinda feel bad for most of new user the last year just getting a lose for their first RP and "deal with it, no there is no rematch nor a win trade back".

This is another worthwhile yet tricky issue arising from a reasonable yet sometimes conflicting set of values. Giving users the chance to run satisfactory RP storylines is integral to this community and RPing is ideally mutually beneficial. However, at the same time, I think it would be questionable to assert that anyone should be obligated to run RPs they do not want to. This sensibility may cast doubt on more "transactional" exchanges like rematch wins or win trades, yet showing reciprocity is generally a positive thing in RP relationships.

As an aside, I will also note that problems can occur when one person expects reciprocity and the other person does not. I recall an incident where someone gave another person's character a win and later expected to be given a rematch win, only for the second person to not give one. This created a pretty rough conflict. After having indirectly witnessed this situation, I feel like it can be prudent to ask if rematch wins are on the table if one can predict potentially wanting one.

More Small Events

Secondly, the events. Since i'm there, i've seen 11 events. That's a lot and not a lot too in some viewpoint but that's not the debate I want to talk about, why is there no more small events like the Last Woman Standing tournament ? I remember also seen a big Royal Rumble made before I joined LAW, why there is no more stuff like that ? I also don't remember seeing a tournament made for a specific thing, like I dunno, young lionness ? Maybe i'm just asking too much by wanting more small events so more people can participate or build a story from this. (Still, big respect to all event coordinator, it really seems stressful and take a lot of time to manage events).

I do not believe that you are wrong to want more small events, and I think your idea of having more small events could help alleviate some of the aforementioned concerns about users not having enough opportunities.

Now, to preface what I am about to write, I cannot, in good conscience, ascribe fault to this community's management (e.g. Winner3, the event team, and the mods) over there not being more small events—reasonable suggestions like that do not always occur to people, through no fault of their own. However, now that the suggestion has been made, I believe it would be reasonable for this community's management to seriously consider it and to potentially take steps to realize the suggestion.

I do realize, though, that there are likely a lot of logistics involved in running more events and that figuring out those logistic is likely nontrivial, to understate the likely difficulty.

Enforcement of Title Reign Rules
As for the enforcement of title length and activity rules, I have a fair number thoughts regarding that, which I may expound upon later. However, to be succinct:

• I believe that in general, title rules should be enforced.
• I believe that limited exceptions can be made, given that the title holder has conducted their title reign in good faith and was subject to circumstances out of their control.
• IF the spirit of the title rules is to limit title reign lengths to allow more users a chance to hold titles, then I believe that title reigns exceeding three years in length violate the spirit of said rules.
• I believe that a failure to enforce title rules DOES NOT NECESSARILY IMPLY bad faith or ill-intent from the one(s) enforcing said rules.
• While I believe that a failure to enforce title rules and/or inconsistence enforcement of title rules DOES NOT NECESSARILY IMPLY moral culpability, such failure(s) risk eroding the trust and credibility of those tasked with title rule enforcement.

[BlackAkuma]

I will say one thing. Despite being here a while, I've only really popped off in the past couple years, so I don't consider myself a veteran or quite a new player. I haven't been around as long as some and I'm not quite as ingrained in the community as a whole, so I don't feel like it's my place to talk too much, but there is one thing that's been bugging me a lot since I joined.

I feel like I fall into this pattern, where someone new will come to the board, and I'll get along with them, and we'll be cooking and having a great time, and they just...vanish. This has happened several times, and it can be extremely disheartening. I want to just chalk it up to bad luck or life intervening, but I also hear tell that, in some cases at least, it has to do with certain behind-the-scenes drama, particularly on Discord.

I don't want to speak on things I don't know 100% about, but I will urge people on Discord to sort of lighten up on newcomers and not push them away. I just really don't like the idea that promising people get pushed away from the site over silly stuff.

[DSX93]

Been there, Akuma. That happens with me a lot too.

[Deskfan45]

I've always noticed that only like a third of the new members in LAW stick around long term. That's why I advise against getting your hopes up for brand new users. Obviously you should be welcoming and RP with new people, but don't take it too hard if they disappear. I always just assumed they'd decided the place wasn't for them and left. It never crossed my mind that it might be drama driving them away.

I could be wrong, but man, I hope I'm not.

[ThurmanMermanPlx]

I have some thoughts on your thoughts, so here I go. I don't mean to like, counter-point everything said here, but while there are some things I agree with, there's also a bit I... don't. I do hope no one gets offended by this; I'm happy to discuss any point I've made here.

Note from future me: This post got long, oops. Going to put each segment in spoilers to sort of tidy up my thoughts.

1)

I had no idea there was some kind of new user issue, personally. That's just the nature of both an Internet forum as well as the kind of activity we do; people roll in, do their thing, and either enjoy it enough to stick around or they have their fill and move on. I know I'm not the most active user myself since my life situation changed over a year ago, but when I was active I had gotten more thread requests than I could reasonably do at one time (and am still backlogged on some of them, apologies to those who are still here and waiting). New people come and go, and I have seen a fair few new users getting a thread or two, but it hasn't occurred to me that they haven't been getting enough. They're welcome to step forward and request more; I don't think I've seen too many doing request threads or poking users on the discord. I myself wouldn't mind doing threads with new users if I wasn't already disappointing a handful of people. xD Honestly, I'd be more concerned about the wave of dedicated users/veterans who have up and left for one reason or another.

-That said, there's something to be said here also about the uncertainty of new users, too; it's common for them to show up, get started, and then vanish a month or two into the thread, never to be seen again, and no one likes that. So while it's a shame, I can't really blame any 'veteran' RPers who only want to continue RPing with people they're confident won't flake out on them. That said, I have no solution to offer for this, because I do agree it sucks for the new users who have trouble getting their feet wet.

2)

As far as events go, they do take a ton of planning, even the smaller ones (see: Lycan's mixed tournament). I'm not surprised there's so few casual ones, but that doesn't mean we can't set up our own just for fun. (I think a young lioness tournament sounds like a great idea, personally.) There's just only so much the current event team can do; and considering how long it takes participants to reply and complete a single thread, let alone multiple rounds, it just doesn't seem reasonable to expect a constant stream of events. (Most are long enough that they often bleed into each other; Some of them are so bad that there are bloody rules built-in for participants that they must have completed threads from previous years in order to qualify!) There's also the issue of making them... I don't know the words I'm trying to use here. Relevant? Distinct? Let's go with distinct. If you run a tournament over and over with no real difference in theme, it gets boring. But it's also hard to come up with distinct themes for each individual one. Setting or match types are about the only way we can go about doing so, and altering the setting only does so much to actually affect the contents of a thread. There is a such thing as too much activity.

3)

I don't really want to comment much on the belts/titles discussion, because personally I think they're way overrated. This site is meant just for casual RP fun, it's not meant as a game with player power rankings. I understand that to some degree the titles are an important piece of RP, purely based on the content we do here, but speaking as the outsider here (meaning; I couldn't really give a rats ass about my characters holding a title), the amount of friction I've seen between users over them is, in my opinion, absurd. We're here to have fun, and given the nature of this site, there's only so many champion slots to go around. That said, given that I don't really care about them, I shouldn't really be directing how they aught to be handled.

-If people are really that anal about length of title reins, I think there's some merit to the idea of having our current yearly events featuring title matches as a way to ensure they rotate around on a regular basis. But, on the other hand, that takes away some of the freedom of RP, generally from the title holder to decide who and what kind of threads they want to do to pass it along, otherwise. It it's going to exist, then the whole point of having one is to make it feel special.

4)

The mod issue is an entire can of worms of its own; I'm a mod in a discord server elsewhere and some of the shit I've seen LAW users give to the mods in my year and a half or so of being here has had me glad I didn't have to deal with them, because my god the userbase would be half as large as it is now. They put up with a ton of shit, half of which they have no control over, and even when they do, half the time people ignore them or talk back to them or otherwise act like spoiled toddlers being told they can't have cake for breakfast. The amount of back-talk, insults, and sheer degradation I've seen users here give to the mods who are trying to de-escalate a situation is so far beyond ban-worthy. And, frankly, I don't know if the mods are afraid to ban/mute users or what, but how they tolerate the disrespect they've been shown in my time here is beyond me. Y'all (general 'you all' here, not calling out anyone specifically) have given them nothing but disrespect and condensation, and then and bitch and whine why they all leave and wonder why.

-I do feel like this has calmed down in recent months, but hot damn, I can't blame anyone for not wanting to step up into the role. And all that is to say nothing of Winner's thoughts on this; I don't know whether he's tried promoting anyone or not, or if he even wants to. Point is, the best we can do is offer our concerns and opinions.

--On that note, MY opinion on it boils down to this: Winner himself feels like Bigfoot. There's the occasional reported sighting (meaning: he'll occasionally respond to his threads, and once in a while you'll see a discord announcement), but otherwise he's so absent that one begins to wonder if he really exists. (Yes, this is me trying to make a lighthearted joke.) I have my own concerns with the way things are run (aside from the aforementioned treatment of mods by the userbase stated above), but at the end of the day, this isn't my site/server.

---That said, other than the issue of new users not getting verified quickly enough and the occasional flood of spam bots or the site crashing, do we really need another forum mod? Most issues I've seen take place on the discord.

In summary... I don't think I'd say the site is dying? It might be a bit less active due to people leaving for one reason or another, but so long as there's people still here keeping their threads going, I don't think it's going anywhere.

Bonus: I agree wholeheartedly with the note about emotes. I'll admit I'm not the most character-savy but I don't recognize like 80% of them, and you almost never see them used. Other than discussing things about that specific character, most of them don't really make for good message reactions anyway.

[BlackAkuma]

I've always noticed that only like a third of the new members in LAW stick around long term. That's why I advise against getting your hopes up for brand new users. Obviously you should be welcoming and RP with new people, but don't take it too hard if they disappear. I always just assumed they'd decided the place wasn't for them and left. It never crossed my mind that it might be drama driving them away.

I could be wrong, but man, I hope I'm not.

With some new users, I can get that. What I'm more concerned are the people who come here and seem to be gelling quite well. I've worked with at least five people who were getting along great as far as I could tell, seemed to be enjoying themselves, we had big plans, and then just...poof. That it keeps happening makes me think there's something more to it than just not fitting in.

As far as veterans being put off from working with new people, I can understand that, but you run the risk of a sort of feedback loop. Veterans don't work with newcomers because they're afraid they'll leave...and then the newcomers leave because the veterans won't work with them...which discourages the veterans from working with newcomers...the newcomers who are leaving because the veterans won't work with them...

[ThatPolishDude]

The mod issue is an entire can of worms of its own; I'm a mod in a discord server elsewhere and some of the shit I've seen LAW users give to the mods in my year and a half or so of being here has had me glad I didn't have to deal with them, because my god the userbase would be half as large as it is now. They put up with a ton of shit, half of which they have no control over, and even when they do, half the time people ignore them or talk back to them or otherwise act like spoiled toddlers being told they can't have cake for breakfast. The amount of back-talk, insults, and sheer degradation I've seen users here give to the mods who are trying to de-escalate a situation is so far beyond ban-worthy. And, frankly, I don't know if the mods are afraid to ban/mute users or what, but how they tolerate the disrespect they've been shown in my time here is beyond me. Y'all (general 'you all' here, not calling out anyone specifically) have given them nothing but disrespect and condensation, and then and bitch and whine why they all leave and wonder why.

-I do feel like this has calmed down in recent months, but hot damn, I can't blame anyone for not wanting to step up into the role. And all that is to say nothing of Winner's thoughts on this; I don't know whether he's tried promoting anyone or not, or if he even wants to. Point is, the best we can do is offer our concerns and opinions.

--On that note, MY opinion on it boils down to this: Winner himself feels like Bigfoot. There's the occasional reported sighting (meaning: he'll occasionally respond to his threads, and once in a while you'll see a discord announcement), but otherwise he's so absent that one begins to wonder if he really exists. (Yes, this is me trying to make a lighthearted joke.) I have my own concerns with the way things are run (aside from the aforementioned treatment of mods by the userbase stated above), but at the end of the day, this isn't my site/server.

Cause we focus on user retention and dont want to start conflicts so we just put up woth it tho that was a big reason why i left mod team, you can try your best but some people just get off to spiting on you.
Shit sucks but we can't just ban people left and right either, this would make a brand new issue

Most people just have no idea how it is on the other side