L.A.W. - League of Anime Wrestling

Yeah, i think generaly we are in agreement
I always said, if you are applying to take part in a tournament you have to always be ok with losing in round one cause no matter what you do, that might just be the case.
And that titles should not be goals you set for yourself as must haves. Of course people want them, they are there, they are shiny and can tell cool stories with them but if you want them so bad that not getting one is rouning your fun I think you need to think long and hard about what's actually fun for you on law cause while anyone "can" get the title, not everyone will and that's fine

I got something to say i was hesitant to speak on regarding moderation for a while, even before this topic and i think it’s high time someone said it.

When i came to LAW winner has been in the chat on semi regular basies, chated with everyone, even kicked some people’s butts in mario cart if i recall right.
Nowadays i hear people ask “where is winner?” Why isn’t he doing anything?”
And I’m sorry but it’s not nuclear phisics, like seriusly take a wild guess.

He made law in 2017 because he and many others were unhappy with the way afw was ran. Don’t know exact date but it is almost if not over 8 years ago. Yet through the time i’m here i keep hearing and seeing people shit all over him and his decisions as an administrator and i’m just baffled how, with all the burdon he has as an admin by default are you all surprised he isn’t around?

That man made this place and say what you will but if you are reading it, you have to care to some extend, you could be on afw, one of miriad rp servers or just rp in dm’s but you chose to be here and yet so many of you seem to not care that you have what to even bitch about becouse of that man, becouse of what he made and because you grew to care for this place and yet you don’t stop to think how it is on the other side? We spoke on mods being treated like shit so think for just a second how it must be to sit in his place, taking shit no matter what decision he makes or doesn’t make because someone will always be angry and it’s oh so easy to get your frustrations out on someone you never even saw a face of.

You can disagree with his choices, sure, i do not agree with all the choices he made and he knows that i don’t but hearing “winner should do something” is starting to make me sick, cause when he does you will be bitching about the thing he did do so what do you all actually expect?

“He should be more professional, not biased for his friends” some of you will say. And that’s not an argument. I asure you, you do not know a single person that is unbiased or professional and expecting it from a pasion project is insane. You don’t get that from communities where staff makes money for what they do. Not only do none of the staff make money here, they constantly need to deal with shit from people that act like a bunch of entitled little children.

And besides that, for all i heard about winners preferential treatment, i have not seen any substantial proof of that either. During my time on the board, i often reprimanded people he supposedly favourd and saw people i thought worth a scolding and he supposedly hated go off with a slap on their wrist, i saw him abstaining from giving input and letting the team decide because of his perceived bias but i never once heard anyone say that he was fair.

So what do you people expect? This community was built because he wanted to and all he is getting is people expecting more out of him or shiting on him. I would not want to be around if i got that either and he stuck with it for 8 years.
Get a grip, he is a person too, not your personal punching bag to get your frustrations out on over something he made for ALL OF YOU.

I will say that, while I don't have the experience with backstage stuff that some people do (largely by design, I generally just stick to the RP forums and Picture Spam on Discord) in my time on LAW, I've found Winner to be a fairly agreeable person, open to a lot of stuff so long as you ask him. As a former mod myself - admittedly, not a good one - not just on AFW but other places prior, I know how troublesome the job can be and how it can wear on you. It's especially straining on a place like this, which isn't really a standard sort of RPG and different in so many ways. So many titles to balance, things to keep an eye on, et cetera.

He's certainly be fair with me in my time, here. I don't recall us being at loggerheads back on AFW, but I don't recall us being friends, either, and he's been nothing but welcoming since I came here, so take that as you will. I can't speak to favoritism, but I will say that I think that word gets tossed aroudn too easily with mods. People are always going to be more inclined to work with people they're familiar with and have a good rapport with, and on a website like this, with so many different stories and with an average of one post every ten minutes or so, that's even more true.

Just my two cents. I'm not going to say Winner is perfect, no mod is, but from my perspective he means well.

Hello, All.

Apologies for not chiming in sooner. There have been a lot of good points made. It's not my intention to stir up a great deal more discussion here. It's my hope that adding my two cents helps to offer some clarity and insight and ease some concerns. Or at the very least, hopefully, I can add some information that might not have been part of the discussion previously.

I want to start by acknowledging the fact that there are people who get soured on our community. I don't want those struggles to feel unseen. I can't hope to list off let alone address all the things that each individual person has felt challenges with, burn out, worry, etc. Eventually, everyone finds themselves in a rut or feels turned off at one point or another. Whether it's due to stalling stories, difficulties getting threads, title story aspirations, and so much more that everyone's already touched upon, there's a certain unsettling feeling about things you once enjoyed about LAW or about anything, really, suddenly evoking negative feelings. And those feelings can spiral. I don't know if it feels this way for everyone but to me, once I started to feel like there were some flaws with some things, I think that pretty soon after that, it can start feeling like there are negatives every which way you look. Or worse, you might start to see negatives and feel negatives in things that you used to enjoy about LAW, and that can turn you off most things. I don't mean all that in a doom-and-gloom sort of way. I mean to convey my understanding and empathy for anyone who has gripes about LAW after having been here for some time. I want you guys to feel seen. But I also want to acknowledge that for almost everyone, the good has far outweighed the bad, and I don't think we'd all be here discussing these topics if we didn't feel that our community and its continued growth and improvement are worth fighting for. And it's worth fighting for because the good far outweighs the bad, and I think it's important to acknowledge that as well.

I think that most people who engage with LAW like what we do here and I think that the overwhelming majority of folks who participate in our community whether it be as roleplayers or even as lurkers enjoy what we do. I still get messages regularly from newer players about how awesome they think LAW is and how far we've come as a platform and as a community. I think that even for people who don't feel hot about things right now, most of you probably don't regret the time you've put into LAW, the friends you've made, the characters you've created, and the stories you've concocted and put into motion. I think that everyone participating in this thread truly cares about LAW and that each of us has chosen to speak up because we want to see continued improvement. I care about the flaws, too. And I want to work on them because I want more people to be able to enjoy more aspects of LAW. And I think everyone wants the same.

I want to be clear that there's a pretty massive canyon between "I feel bummed out that some things" and "LAW is dying". I think it's important to call the negatives but I also feel it's critically important to assess the things we call out and work out whether or not those really are things as bad some folks feel really are. What are we specifically trying to combat here and which things actually need improvement? Again, not trying to downplay, discredit, or ignore any of the issues or problems people have voiced in this thread or elsewhere. I just want to add some context and clarity to some issues that have been raised based on anecdotes, vibes, or feelings.


So here's some data. I got this by querying the site's database. Now, unless I'm a hack software dev or unless you don't trust me, you can take the above table to numbers represent the number of new accounts created on LAW year over year. The year I made the site, 2017, has an inflated number because when a forum is made there are accounts automatically generated for various bots that either provide some site functionality or work as web crawlers that scan the site and help us appear in search engines and such. You can see that there wasn't an uptick in new accounts joining until about 2022. I've never actually sat down and queried this particular data before because the way phpbb lays out data in its database tables is kind of a mess. But this thread led me to investigate. And these findings line up exactly with my experience as a mod/admin at LAW. Please allow me to explain.

In early 2022/late 2021, I began paying for Google Adsense and other advertisement-related services. This was some time back, back before I knew everyone in this thread. I also began to advertise my site myself on random forums, on reddit, and anywhere I could post to encourage people to join LAW without breaking the rules of the subreddit or forum I was posting in. Some folks have reported to me that they heard about LAW and even joined after seeing the random posts I made. These efforts were a success. In fact, they were a little too successful. People began joining at a rate I could hardly keep up with. I stopped paying for adsense and I stopped posting ads in early 2023. Again, I never bothered to actually sit down and look a the numbers, but I did not expect to see the level of growth that occurred. I think it speaks volumes that the numbers stayed high, higher than in our earlier years even I stopped advertising. And I felt the effects of that. Even without having these numbers in front of me, the uptick in new users prompted me to take a look at the character approval process and give some thought to the new user experience.

I realize that this data by itself does not dispel every last concern people have raised. All it proves is that we've trended upwards with people joining LAW and that we seemingly have healthy numbers in this one regard. This does not mean that I think we can't or shouldn't be doing more to help accommodate new users and encourage them to join in on the festivities here at LAW. This does not mean that new user retention rate has gone up over the years. This does not mean that there aren't some new users who struggle to find threads and struggle to get started or struggle to write/build up a rising star. It doesn't confirm or deny that some "veterans" might pass over opportunities to thread with some newbies. But it does mean that we aren't in a crisis as far as helping grow our userbase goes. I would go as far as to say that it means we don't have glaring or insurmountable issues with consistently getting some new users to stick around. Not every new user catches everyone's attention. But the numbers don't lie. We average 170+ new users per year over the past three years. Two of the top 15 posters for this month right now are users who have joined LAW this year, within just the past few months. 8 new users who have joined this year have over 100 posts to the forum. That's not going to sound like a lot to some folks, but 8 new users within the past 6 months who are relatively active is a healthy metric to anyone who's even thought about running an online forum and I really do feel that a most of us don't keep track of or aren't aware of all the times when we get a new, active person who regularly posts.

If I read this thread as a normal user, I would have the impression that we haven't really been getting news users or that it's been a major problem for us for a very long time. But if any of that was true, the numbers would reflect that over the years. Specifically, I think that if there was a problem as big as the impression I'm getting here, we would see the active user base shrink, mass reports of an inability of new users to get off the ground, followed by a big drop off in the number of new accounts per year. As an admin, I'm actually glad that by pulling back the adverts made year to year the number of new accounts come down a bit because it means a more manageable workload for me in terms of approving character profiles for new users. I'm not saying that things are perfect as is or that the new user experience can't be improved. I just want to be clear that I don't see hard, concrete evidence that there is a problem or that things have gotten worse as far as onboarding new users goes. And speaking of, I want to draw attention to the new user experience, particularly when a new user joins and creates their first character

I don't want anyone to come across this thread with the impression that new users aren't really given any direction or help when they choose to join our community. I'm sure that most LAW folk think of the character approval process for new users as just a check mark. And I know I've said it a few times here and there, but please take a look at this character approval private message. It's no small amount of text. Most of the approvals I do are about this long. I always make sure to leave feedback for new users on their characters, offer ideas for how they can use them at LAW and in RP in general, and I always leave them with advice to join the server and to message people directly when looking for RP's. Again, I don't think the new user onboarding experience is perfect. I think there are ways to improve things and I do want to explore ideas. But I also don't want anyone to have the impression that new users are having a rough go of things or that new users are not being given any advice or direction. I do a lot of these and I really do feel like it's made a big difference in the years since I started doing it back in 2022. And I feel like this is part of the "good" that gets lost in the shuffle and unacknowledged.

Going off the tangent of "unacknowledged", the first post of this thread states that there have only been 11 events since the original poster of the thread joined the community. There have also been other thoughts and statements made that give the impression that there aren't enough small (presumably meaning non-PPV) events. I get the impression from reading some of these posts that there is a general challenge with organizing tournaments that most participants are happy with. Questions about why the Last Woman Standing Tournament hasn't been picked back up. I bring these things up because I feel like most of these queries and sentiments can be answered or cleared up with just a few minutes of searching.

I think the Last Woman Standing Tournament was brought up precisely because it has a very long history of running repeatedly and successfully, with most users being happy about being given the chance to participate in it. It didn't continue because the guy who was graciously volunteering his time and effort organizing it stopped being active due to his personal life getting busy, and because the last one or two LWS's he did saw some users come away unhappy due to the random nature of the booking of the event (he booked the outcomes of the matches using dice/RNG). It wasn't picked back up because, before the last couple weeks, I didn't know that anyone wanted to see the tradition continue. I'll gladly get it going again if people let me know that's what they'd like to see.

Doing a cursory search, I can see that since July 2022, we've had (at least) the following events: 1) LAW Apex, 2) Fight The LAW 2, 3) We Are LAW 6, 4) Fight The LAW 3, 5) We Are LAW 7, 6) Fight The LAW 4, 7) The Madison Gambit Event, 8) Turning Point, 9) Nightmare On LAW Street, 10) Wildcard Tag 2, 11) Martial LAW, 12) Do or Die, 13) The Double or Nothing Tournament, 14) The H1 Climax Tournament, 15) The MILF Tournament, 16) The Kings and Queens, Tournament, 17) The Proving Grounds Events, 18) The Outmatched in Oil Tournament, 19) The Queen of The Ring Tournament. A lot more than 11, and I might have missed some. The event support team and event organizers work pretty hard these. And while I'm sure that most folks are grateful for that, I don't want the implication here or elsewhere to be that there aren't more small events or not enough events, in general, going on. 19+ events in three years is a pretty good metric imo. Maybe user demand is so high that we should try to do more? Maybe I could be doing more to make people aware of all the events we do? What I know for certain is that there certainly isn't a lack of events, smaller or otherwise. If there are more events that users want to see, especially if people want to see something specific like the return of the Last Woman Standing Tourney, I think communicating that is the way go. And I think that can be done without the insinuation that there haven't been enough events in recent years. There have been enough events, I feel, for most users to have opportunities to participate in some if they so wish.

There's so much to be said about titles and contenders. But a lot those discussions are hard to base in numbers and hard data. So much of it is perception. But there is some ground I'd like to cover here. 2 years is not the time limit for title reigns. And prior to the 2 year rule, most title reigns lasted a lot longer than that. The only hard and fast rules are to have a plan for a successor by 1.5 years into a title reign and to put that plan into motion by the 2 year mark. That's it. A user who has reasonably tried to do those things is not breaking a rule if something happens along the way, especially if whatever happened is something that's not within their control. I think getting emotional over the improbability that some inactive person might get a championship is not a healthy way to engage the title scene or discussions around it. The reality is that in recent years a lot of title reigns have ended around the same time and you'd see a good number of champions cycle out after a couple years. I think we're going to see the same thing happen soon with many of the current champions.

I think a lot of people forget that titles are nothing more than plot devices meant to facilitate fun and storytelling. I think that almost every user ever who has felt the title scene is inaccessible, or that they can't hope to so much as get a title match has not genuinely tried to get one. A good chunk of the users in this very thread have had title matches. I sincerely believe that getting a title match/title shot on LAW is not hard. Titles reigns are a different story of course. As it was put earlier, not everyone can or should have a title run. But I also don't think that title reigns are as hard to come by as some users believe, either. Things happen all the time, plans change constantly. The majority of title holders don't end up passing the title to the person they thought they would when they first win their title. That applies to title changes coming up in the next few months as well. Again, I think that most people who think they can't get a title match or title reign at LAW ever are people who have not tried and I would love to hear detailed accounts from users who feel differently. I believe things can be improved further. I believe we would benefit from the addition of more titles, more events catered to specific titles and weight divisions and so on. But I also want to accurately assess what the challenges and problems are.

People become champions by being in the right place at the right time. But when that opportunity comes, it usually goes to someone in the pool of people that have come to be known as active, amicable users who have expressed interest. This is usually accomplished by gelling with other users and getting in contact with users who are champions or users who are invested in the title scene. Being willing to do title stories, even stories that are title adjacent (number one contender's matches, matches with prominent wrestlers in specific weight divisions, former champs, former contenders, participating in events, promos, other interactions and more) goes such a long way towards these things because they add lore, depth, and credence to titles. I can understand how someone who's never engaged with titles might feel that getting a title match is impossible. But I don't understand how someone who has tried to get a title match could feel that way, and I would love to be illuminated.

Improvements can definitely be made. Changing the perception that title matches and the title scene are out of reach is something I'd like to strive for. I'd also like to strive to have more presence in the community. Someone likened seeing me to a Big Foot sighting. And while that is funny, there's definitely some merit to it. I do a lot of work in the background from helping with event pitches/refinement/structuring to approving new user profiles, to handling rules infractions. But I've definitely scaled back my participation in the discord server over the past few years and I don't pop up in discussion threads like these. I've dealt with a lot of complicated emotional issues in the last 2-3 years, specifically with my engagement with the community on Discord. For a good few years now, about 3-4 users would regularly see my presence online and my participation in the LAW Discord server as an invitation to talk down to me about my decisions with LAW, and to hurl various judgements and ad hominem attacks at me. I feel this is illustrated particularly well with the past week or so. The last time I left a message in the discord server was over a month ago. And I've sent about 20 messages there this year, most of which were from January and February. Yet a little over a week ago, a group of people got into a discussion that cropped up from the fact that for the first time in years, I took 3 days to approve a new user's character profile. This wasn't brought up to me privately. I had missed the profile because I somehow never got a notification for the user posting it. The discussion that ensued in the discord server saw various users not just critique my decisions and my efforts with LAW, but also repeatedly attack and insult me, personally - me and my professionalism. If that can happen without me even being active in the server, I fear what might happen if I become choose to participate more and become more involved. It's not the first time and it definitely won't be the last. I share this story to give context to why I struggle to show my face. But I don't think that LAW has a drama problem or has anywhere near as much negativity going on as I've seen expressed by some in this thread. Even if some people make me feel unwelcome personally, I think that says more about the position of admin being thankless and prone to catching blame than it does about the state of LAW. I've had a lot of people message me for years saying that they miss my participation in the discord server and that they'd feel better if I hung out there more often. So even if it'll be hard for me at first, I'd like to try do to that.

I realize this is a pretty big wall of text and no one wants to read all this. People have strong, complex feelings about LAW and various aspects of this community. I truly believe that these feelings come more from a place of caring about what we love about LAW than it does from a place of dissatisfaction. I think people love LAW and want to see more good things for it. I do not believe that things are all doom and gloom here or in the community as a whole.

Like all of you guys, I have a lot of strong feelings about LAW. If you take anything away from my sermon here, please know that I will try to accommodate this community regardless of what my personal beliefs are.

I don't think we need another forum moderator, but I'm still going to appoint one because doing so will put a lot of people at ease. I don't think we're lacking for events, but I'm still going to try to work on and assist with putting together more of them. I'm afraid to hang out on discord more, but I'm still gonna try because I feel like I can make a difference by making people feel more welcome and making it feel more inclusive. I think that the new user experience is actually pretty alright, but I still want to work on brainstorming ideas with people and implementing ideas to make things even smoother for newer users. I think "LAW is dying/drama-filled/etc" is straight hyperbole, but I'm still going to try to do what I can to address the concerns I've read here because I care about this place. And if you're reading this, I know you do, too.

Thanks, everyone.

One thing I think worth adding here:

In my experience as a mod on AFW, I had to deal a LOT with an issue of people wanting threads or ppv/title bouts, but literally NEVER speaking to a mod OR to the title holders at the time about doing so. When asked why, they said they were "too shy" to actually ask someone for a match.

Squeaky wheel gets the grease guys. If you want something, you shouldn't wait around and hope management or a title holder randomly seeks you out. You should make a point to break the shyness and actually ask upfront. Doesn't guarantee you'll get the answer you want...but if you've legitimately never tried that method, give it a shot.

Who's here? Inspector BG, at your service for better or for worse!
Sorry to bring this up again, but I promise it won't be long (I lied in a way because the post is long, but technically we won't talk about it for long; a mistake is half forgiven). I had to walk a few kilometers; walking helps calm down and clear your thoughts, hehe.



First of all, I want to point out that several things have changed, both in the server and the forum, since this thread. It's cool, really cool. I'm happy to see that my impact on LAW is immense (I'm only half kidding; many people supported what I said, and I thank you for sharing your feelings and experiences to support my words and yours).

Furthermore, I agree with some points that go against what I said; after all, I'm not an expert.

But I want to point out that I don't completely agree with everything, that not everything is flawless, and above all, I was extremely disappointed by the debates (because aren't they dramas???) on Discord about this post.

First of all, I didn't appreciate that everything I said on this thread focused on belts (especially on Discord). As I said, I just want the rules to be respected. Saying "trust the process" isn't enough, and neither is defending your friends. It's laudable, certainly, but the rule literally says "After 1.5 years of IRL time of your character being a champion, I will ask you to disclose to me your plans for who you intend to have your character drop their title to and how. After 2 years of IRL time, if you have not begun the thread in which your character will pass their championship on to someone else, your title may be vacated." The rule is pretty explicit, and with the other rules, it was easy for anyone to know who had/didn't have their last match as champion... Unless the thread was hidden, of course.
In that case, what could prevent a current champion from having a hidden thread with someone but that thread takes years to finish? What prevents a champion from choosing their successor, someone who is not very active or someone who will leave LAW before this thread is finished (which would make their reign even longer), or something else. I don't blame anyone, it can happen that plans are canceled at the last moment and other things, I'm just pointing out the possible dangers if the rules are not applied or are imperfect (I don't want to get into politics but this is literally what the French president has been doing since 2017 and it is something intolerable for a community, I advise you to read How Democracies Die)

I agree that a thread should be fun for both people, which is why I've personally always refused to do anything I don't like and canceled every thread if my partner felt uncomfortable/forced to roleplay with me. However, even if we almost all agree on this, there's still a feeling we haven't taken into account.
Frustration. The frustration of seeing someone active in roleplay but not ours for days, weeks, months, or years. Inactivity is one thing; ignoring a thread is another. It reminds me of a user who had the rule "after a month without a response and without a message from you explaining your inactivity, I will cancel our thread." There's no real solution or anything else to say other than these random ideas, just maybe people enjoy their roleplays in their own way, and that's why for a good number of people, roleplaying on Discord is easier than on the forum (fluidity between replies, maybe canon or not, maybe planning other roleplays on the forum, maybe reposting on the forum, etc.)

Regarding moderation, I agree that no one has both points of view, however, give us your point of view? From what I know, most mods in the last three years haven't experienced a certain pedophile, a certain person with five different accounts, and a drama every day when the general channel was active. Sure, there are some arguments, but it never goes any further, at least, that's the impression I get, having seen only two people leave the server (forced or not), after the mods' intervention. So yeah, I'm not going to say that you have it easy as mods, but your problems are insignificant compared to what I heard from law 5/4 years ago. You know how I am, rules are rules and not sanctioning someone because "this person is popular" is the worst excuse. Show these people their mistakes, make them understand that what they are doing is intolerable, that's how it's supposed to work. I'm not going to teach a mod how to do their mod job, but I've heard more stories of moderators abusing their roles without repercussions than the other way around (one step away from including moderators in ACAB, just kidding).

Now, I don't like the winner chart regarding new users in LAW. Having a new member is cool!... But is he really active? What does being active mean? Being a roleplayer in the forum? Talking/interacting in Discord? Both? How often?
Complicated, isn't it? Let's think big and say that an "active" user is a user who makes at least one reply every two weeks on the forum OR who talks once a week on the server... That's about, off the top of my head, since I'm mentally ill, around 30 active people. But the question is, are there fewer or more active people over the years? You just have to look at the number of people who arrive at LAW and are active AND subtract them from the people who leave (I can't be bothered to do linear sequences, I've done enough math in my life).
Also, what I'm pointing out is people who only react to each other. I remember when I first joined LAW, I really struggled to make friends with people until I found two or three people to roleplay with. I'm not going to drop any names, but if I count new users, many get ignored when they try to interact with others, whereas when some people appear after weeks without messages, all their friends come to greet them. I'm not saying you should force yourself to talk to everyone, but treating people differently isn't cool.

Also, no one has mentioned the 5-minute rule between links/gifs being too long on Discord (I honestly think lowering it to 1 minute would be better), and that there are LOOOOO many emotes that no one uses with OCs from users who aren't even on LAW anymore.

Now (again), I'm saying this honestly (as always, I'm always honest), but I don't know why Winner is so inactive. I don't expect him to be ultra-active every day and greet everyone on the server, but to think that 95% of the people in LAW only know Winner from the THANKS he gives for approving your first profile and his announcements on Law-news in the Discord is pretty sad. The only people who don't like Winner, from what I know, have left LAW. I'm sure everyone wants to become a little closer to Winner; after all, he's the one who brought us all together.

Certainly not everything is perfect, and in my case, I complain a lot, but I don't hate anyone at LAW. Maybe I've been disappointed by people, but nothing more. Maybe it's just my perspective, but you're just pixels to me, and I'm just pixels to you. I do what I have to do: roleplay with people, have a good time with people before disappearing.
So yeah, I'm not perfect, a little too demanding, honest, outspoken, arrogant, very easily irritable, and a bit of an airhead. I just want to have a good time, and make sure newcomers have one too, whether on the forum or on Discord.

TO CONCLUDE ONCE AND FOR ALL, I find it a bit of a shame that my LAW pre-anniversary thread is this one, but in another sense, it was necessary, both for myself and for others who perhaps didn't dare to speak up. I am not the best person, not the most appreciated person nor even the one who gives the necessary solutions and knowledge, but I am happy to be a member of this community and I will stay as long as I want, and just for that I will do everything to make this journey fun with the people I appreciate and who appreciate me.

ANYWAY, MY ROLEPLAYERS SEE YOU SOON FOR OUR NEXT THREAD AND FOR THE NON ROLEPLAYER, SEE YOU IN THE DISCORD (Get ready to feel like a punching bag) !