My problems with LAW

[Fairy Dragon]

I wanted to talk about some things and see if I could shed some light about how things worked with my title reign. I do want to discuss titles more in length at a later date but what I can discuss now I will. I've enjoyed LAW the entire time I've been here and want to stay with it for as long as possible I'v meet awesome people both here and at AFW that if we one day ended up no longer in contact with I would miss. In fact with some people that's already happened, but overall my experience with LAW is more good than bad. However I want to address some issues I have with it.

The first is with the Discord. Some brought it up earlier but I feel it does as much damage nowadays as it helps. To bring up one example would be Gil. Gil was a kind and sweet user who never caused problems for anyone and only planned to be with us for a little bit then tried to find time to stay because they enjoyed the community so much. Despite that they ended up leaving anyway and later we find out that they felt from certain comments that they were bothering people and that played a part in why they ended up leaving for good and pretty much cutting off contact with anyone in LAW. That happened back when I found the Discord to be tolerable or enjoyable. Outside of talking about pics in Self promo or the occasional stuff in rp planning or discussion I don't really enjoy much anymore. More and more people focus on the negatives and combat anyone, even mods when they're called on it and jump through hoops to just why 'were not arguing and you should let us be' for the umpteenth time. Believe it or not I'm not interested in going to comic books, Vidya games, or anime and manga to discuss shit when people are on the their 20th day shitting on Lilo and Stich or DMC because God forbid we spend that time talking about shit we actually enjoy talking about. I don't want to discuss pro wrestling on there either, it's a few more trolls away from being Twitter and only go there when I'm at a live event because that's one of the few times people don't seem to give you a hard time about anything in there. I've seen people say blatant lies to justify complaining about a wrestler they don't like there too with zero push back, so literally why would I even want to discuss something like that with people and again like everywhere else if they're called on it it's suddenly not an argument even if it completely was.

As a former mod I do have sympathy for them for what they go through because the way some people act with them is unacceptable. But even with them I have limits, I had a complaint that I brought up in the rants about how I was needlessly cussed out in sportsball by someone I've never interacted with, so they have no reason to be asking to me like that's okay, were not buddies and that's rude as well. A mod heard my complaint (I'm not naming names they know who they are and I don't want them catching shit for it because we've talked about it already) and came to me, only to kinda tell me their was nothing they could do because it was awhile before they knew about it...That's just not really acceptable imo even as a former mod. You could warn them to not do that in the future, even in private if you think it would be weird to bring it up in public now but just saying 'oh it was awhile ago, nothing to do' isn't going to make me want to go to you about anything else in the future...because that leads into my other point. It's pretty clear the mods try not to be too hard on people for the sake of not making users leave, I've literally seen it a hundred times where a user causes a problem or needlessly insults someone and only when someone says something back does the mod step in and tell everyone to calm down, only one person was causing problems only one person needs to calm down. As for user retention I'll say this...you lose users when they feel ignored as well. And if you tolerate bad eggs who blow up and never seem to get properly punished or addressed, they feel ignored. Anyone who might leave because the mods did their job and told them to behave, frankly isn't worth keeping. This is a hobby we shouldn't have to deal with someone who's being a problem when we're trying to have fun. Like I said this is just one issue with the mods I've mostly made friends with the mods of this site but I can't overlook some things that I just don't agree with.

Now as for the titles. As a champion I'm sure some people might take what I say with a grain of salt but I feel some transparency is needed here. Keep in mind I can only speak for myself and my experiences and Im not telling people how it is for everyone. The most obvious is that if you know me you know that I did not want to be champ for 2 years. I don't think the length of my reign makes it memorable, I'm much more proud of the fact that I have a bunch of great matches that I'm looking forward to seeing people read if they want to have the time. To my first point Private matches exist. Not all of the title matches I've done or doing are visible to the common user. To avoid spoiling results of certain matches I've done private ones until those matches are done, like I said this is where I can only speak for me because I don't know how many other title matches smothers are doing but my total count of LAW title matches is currently clocked at 13, which again is way more important than holding the belt long. Anyone mad about me holding it for 2 years, I understand, I'm mad too. It's not any one person's fault though, it's a series of things that took place that caused it to lead to this...One issue is with who was supposed to win the belt, when I became champion I asked anyone if they wanted a title match and got a few people to come and offer one and then I put them all on a list, marking the order in which I'd drop the belt to them in the event that the first person couldn't win it for one reason or another. So I had someone in mind to beat Kyoko pretty early but also had back ups and later on when other people asked if they could get a title match I said yes and put them on the list too...the list isn't in order of asking either, it's based on a bunch of things such as activity and word of mouth on the person so I did my best not to play favorites and pick a friend because I wanted to avoid having the belt only enter my friend circle. Which is why another thing I'm proud of is that so far no one has really been turned away from a title match. Everyone who's asked for a title shot from me has gotten it, unless I'm having a massive lapse in memory that I don't believe I have. This includes people who I never worked with before winning the belt, sometimes I started matches with my other characters with these users because we met over a chance to face Kyoko and potentially win the belt. Some of my best matches with this include guys like Hills (Who sadly seems to have gone silent) and Polish who I had never really worked with until they made an offer to fight Kyoko. I think this is a big problem with the vets and new guys thing and the barrier entry for title matches, some people aren't asking for a shot because they assume they won'r get it or they'll only lose. Nothing wrong with wanting a win but you kinda have to ask to even get the chance.

But I must admit some fault in this. While no one's been rejected for title matches, in trying to be quick with my title reign and go through the matches quicker I have sadly turned people down who just wanted to rp with me and I regret that. I often think about new users who wanted to do a feud with someone and I wasn't sure if I could commit because I was already behind on other threads, An apology to some like BG, Vcom, HF, Mr. Q, and Albentas and so many more who have been either put on hold for matches or seen me take longer with non title stuff because of the championship. If anyone left because they felt I was a veteran ignoring them I'm truly sorry that I played a part in that and it's one of the reasons I really want to get the championship story put away. It was a fun chapter but it's hurt me in other places. I don't really say all this to say that anyone's complaints are wrong but I feel some misunderstandings about how some things work out have to be clear. Like one reason my reign went on longer was that I agreed to do a PPV match with Skip thinking that like last year the PPV would be out by February or March and I could finish it and then have the title match where Kyoko drops the belt (Which was running in private before that) would drop right after it was done or hopefully by June...unfortunately the PPV ended up being way later than expected and the user who I was doing the match that would cost Kyoko the belt started off strong but real life slowed them down and then halted them outright for awhile. We were so close to an ending that I held out for them a little because I didn't want to make someone lose the chance to be champion because of stuff that I'd been through myself, but sadly too much time passed and we came to a mutual agreement it was best to move on, already I'm working on the next match that'll finally be Kyoko's last title. The person who I'm dropping the belt too isn't a former champion, and the person I was originally planning to drop it too was also not a former champion, I don't want to create a barrier between verteans and 'main card' people and newer folks, this should be a fun place and we should be open to everyone which I do hope we can work towards going forward by keeping an open mind.

[Malkavia]

Secondly, the events. Since i'm there, i've seen 11 events. That's a lot and not a lot too in some viewpoint but that's not the debate I want to talk about, why is there no more small events like the Last Woman Standing tournament ? I remember also seen a big Royal Rumble made before I joined LAW, why there is no more stuff like that ? I also don't remember seeing a tournament made for a specific thing, like I dunno, young lionness ? Maybe i'm just asking too much by wanting more small events so more people can participate or build a story from this. (Still, big respect to all event coordinator, it really seems stressful and take a lot of time to manage events).

My sense is people often feel like they need permission to run a user-event, or that there's a "magic sauce" that events from Winner or the Event Team have that ordinary users can't replicate. This an illusion. Staff bring nothing to event planning that you can't find from any user on the site with an idea and the drive to make it happen; the LWS is a long-running and much-loved event run entirely by a user.

So if there's an event you'd like to see, pitch it to people. And if you get bites — run it!

I'm not sure if it was also like that few years ago when YOU joined the server.

When I joined roughly 3 years ago, I'd say it was pretty tricky to get threads — particularly with veteran players. But what tended to happen with people who stuck around is they'd develop personal rapport with this or that veteran who gave them a chance. A storyline would pop off between the two, and then that would give them traction to work more widely. People would get "adopted."

People who go out of their way to meet new users and to get their characters moving and seen offer a uniquely valuable service to our community. I feel like there are a lot fewer people like that now than when I joined — partly because of drama, and but really much of it because of the natural ebb and flow of things.

That lend to a third point, something i've been talking a loooooot these weeks, titles and contenders. I'm a bit (really) upset about how it is managed and how the rules are just there to decorate. I can understand some unplanned stuff like a user suddenly become inactive (tho for some of them it's weird weird to suddenly want an inactive user as the next champ because he planned to return, some bros has been inactive for 2/3 years if no more and suddenly came back to be champ ? heh.) or something, but still in 6 months you have the time to find an alternative. For those who doesnt know, the rule says you have to say to Winner your plan for the end of your reign at 1.5 year (irl time) of your reign so you can lose it around the 2 years (the last match should start BEFORE the 2 years btw). There is litteraly no excuse for that because nothing force you to get get the full 2 years reign, if you think you need a two year reign to feel memorable to people you're miserable. It leads to a second problem, also in relation with the first problem, the contenders are the same. How is that possible that in 4 years, i've seen few people having their first time as a contender, some never and some of them have been contenders in ALMOST all the belt in the last two years. Again, i'm not saying to be friend with everyone but make it feel interesting for other people, I'm not sure if new users would be interested to be a part of LAW's story in the next years because of that. Also, it would be great if the championship page are updated by the concerned users, that's the minimum work you could do to give a legacy in LAW. Also also, wouldn't it be more logical to plan PPVs and event around the title reign ? I'm pretty sure the first match of a new champ and the last match of champ should be a MAIN EVENT. It's maybe just my opinions but the rules should be applied to everyone equally and people have no right to vent about the rules being applied, mhhhhh ?

Somewhat negative rant

My experience with titles, tournaments, and anything where there are scarce accolades that people care about has been almost entirely negative. The title holders I've known have experienced belts as a source of pressure, stress, failure. People want things from them, demand things from them. And if life happens to them mid-reign, well, that's a disaster. People seeking titles, meanwhile, have experienced them as disappointments, as sources of frustration. Belts are drama magnets.

Meanwhile, in every tournament I've ever had a part in organizing or even watching get organized, I'd say half or more people are not only unhappy about about the outcome of the tournament — they also actively feel entitled enough to complain, sometimes publicly, sometimes abusively towards the event runner. This always happens in my experience, no matter who's booking or how they book. I'm not calling anyone out here; if you think I'm thinking of you, rest assured I could as easily be thinking of literally a dozen other people. This is a general problem I've seen in four different tournaments run by three different people.

So—yes. It would be nice if we could have titles that moved faster and more smoothly, and there are rules I think would make the whole process better. But you know, all of that's tiny compared to just. People having some generosity and maturity. I actually think it's really toxic how important people seem to think these kinds of accolades are. It's not healthy to be deeply emotionally upset over a character losing a match. It's not healthy to feel deeply hurt over being passed over for an accolade. That kind of thing sucks for the person who's upset, it sucks for the title holder who feels the resentment of people who want what they have, it sucks for the mods who have to deal with it when it blows up into the public space, and it sucks for event runners who have to start looking at events as games of "how do I upset the fewest people" instead of "how do I make this cool?"

If there was a single systemic issue I had to point to and say "That, that's killing the fun at LAW," I would say it's a widespread lack of ability to treat losses with equanimity and to prioritize "winning" LAW as a game over advancing stories that engage you with partners you see as friends.

To resume everything, I feel like LAW is dying little by little and nobody talks about it or are worried ??? The lack of interaction between veteran and new users, the lack of small and quick events or bigger ones, some inactive user that were planned for big stuff but delay everything because of their activities and the lack of decisions by the mod(s?). I have no "good" answer for all of these problems, i'm just a regular LAW user that care about the future of LAW and keep loving the forum even if I heard some weird stuff about it and almost everyone around me says "LAW ? There is a lot of drama there isnt it ?". I just want things to get better and see everyone having a good time there and enjoy.

It seems like the main points in this thread is that LAW would benefit from better (read: active and responsible) moderation, from more frequent events, and from titles that move more quickly and smoothly. I think those are all legitimate concerns. However, none of these imo would be a silver bullet for the pessimism many people feel about LAW.

What LAW needs to succeed are users who are excited to be here and running their stories, who are generous enough to take risks with new people and to push characters beyond their own, and who have the time, energy, and talent to be active. Unfortunately, there's no magic wand, no smart policy, Winner or anyone can wave that will conjure those people into being.

That said, I wouldn't underestimate the value individual members and users can create just by striving to be that kind of person themselves. Ultimately, my experience with online communities is that the sum of users is much more important than the policies of the particular admin.

[3ho]

Ding ding ding!

Malk nailed it.

Having been a lurker for so many years, I have the blessing of being an outsider looking in. The only drama I’ve ever seen are people not happy about who has the titles because it is a measure of who is winning and if you want to win then you measure yourself against it.

You want to be a champion and have a belt? Create or coordinate your own event. Get others to join in, thread with people. Build it up. Then have it. Then ask for the fancy picture on the front page if that’s all you care about. Roleplaying is about creating your own fun but especially here where it can be a collaborative effort.

That aside, drama isn’t what keeps people from signing up or sticking around. It’s usually how much fun they think they’ll have. So yea, reaching out to other players or taking that offer by someone who mustered up the courage to ask you is great. Keeps them engaged.


As for overall population, it isn’t just this site or wrestling RPs. It is all forum RPs that are seeing a decline in population. The nature of entertainment has shifted. Everything is competing for your attention so less people will discover things like forum based role playing.

Additionally for those who are only thinking of the past 5 years, think back to what was going on 5 years ago. COVID. People were stuck in their houses and spent more time online. More time online meant more time to discover forum RPs for the things they are interested in.

Apply that to even minor events like someone new discovers televised wrestling. Listens to a podcast about it. Podcaster mentions writing own storylines. The person googles “writing your own wrestling story”. Sees role play site. They join.

It is an ebb and flow as Malk said.

[Jaystar]

A lot of good and interesting discussion here, perhaps I'll add a few comments or points from my own perspective instead of catching up to my threads, which I should have really been doing.

---

I have no idea where I'd position on the veteran-newcomer -line, that might be rather subjective, but I want to mention one thing that I'm always a bit wary of when engaging with new users. Namely, due to my posting pace and rate being generally rather slow, (and me being often rather booked up anyway), I'm often hesitant to reach out immediately to new users because they're often very eager, engaged and active, and I'm afraid that my slow response rate could somehow dampen or even kill their own motivation. Thus, I only tend to do it in circumstances, where it seems that someone with a promising character profile seems to struggle with getting threads/attention from other users (and I happen to have the opportunity/time).

Needless to say, I value tremendously everyone who actively contacts new users and offers out to RP with them, as that is after all the only way to ensure longevity of the forum. As Malk said, it's uniquely valuable.

With that said, I do recognize the challenge of newcomers often vanishing rather early as raised by Akuma & DSX. It can indeed be frustrating, and is something that I take also into account when considering whether to engage with new users. To mitigate any potential disappointment, I thus try to offer them match scenarios that are slightly more meaningless for me, or at least would not be very bad for my own character's storyline to not come to fruition or seen to conclusion.

I would certainly be very disappointed if new users vanishing would be due to some Discord stuff or drama. There should be no place for such.

However, I do want to also mention that my gut feeling is that an RP forum like LAW tends to attract a disproportionate amount of neurodivergent people compared to the general population, e.g. ADHDers. While that is usually excellent for creativity, and certainly beneficial on a site like this, it usually means decreased attention spans too, and more rapidly shifting interests. I would find the rather typical pattern of a flurry of activity right at the start, juggling with a large number of threads for a while, before suddenly hitting a kind of "burnout" and posting turning into a chore, causing the person to seemingly vanish, to kinda be a part of the "natural ebb and flow" of things as recently mentioned. (This I feel can also be seen in the cycles of activity of many of us more established members.) I think the best way to combat this would be to think of ways how to make the new members feel like it's OK if they can't continue posting at the rapid pace that they've used to, or to overcome the initial phase of decreasing interest somehow.

With that said, I unfortunately do also recognize the general shift in the nature of entertainment, that is likely decreasing the number of people even finding out about places like LAW, or having the attention span to actually write on one. This gives even more incentives for trying to keep the retention rate high.

---

When it comes to titles and win-rates, I know I'm probably coming from a bit of a different place as I tend to often prefer writing losing characters in many scenarios, and personally don't really hold any interest towards the title scene. (That is not to say that I would not engage with it if providing fun story opportunities - it just does not hold importance to me.)

But what I would like to say is this: LAW is NOT a competition.

Generally, I think people value high win-rates too highly. A character should not be considered weak, even if they would lose the first few of their matches. A character can be a perfectly valuable, memorable, or even legendary part of the LAW lore, even without ever coming close to the title scene. Sure, I get that titles and such can drive interesting storylines and could be a nice thing to have your character being included in, but I would hate anyone feeling that they're something that they would need to get their character into, or would RP with the sole purpose of getting their character into it. That does not sound very fun to me, only something that'll likely provide quite a few disappointments and stress.

With that said though... Since the titles do seem to be a motivator for many, I could support an idea to shorten the maximum time that a title can be held. After all, two years is a very long time IRL. Yes, I do get that it is there to enable memorable and unique title reigns, and to facilitate writing multiple threads with different people. But then again, which one should be considered more important? A memorable title reign for a select few, or giving a shorter title reign for a multitude of players/characters? While I don't personally have any kind of issue with how the title holders have managed their reigns in the past couple of years (and I haven't even followed that closely), I could see e.g. six months (IRL) being a reasonable time to hold a title. (How I'd see this work out in practice is that the title holder would be running the defense threads that they'd desire in parallel in private threads - potentially starting even before the champ is crowned - so that the titles would then essentially change hands in (at least almost) every PPV.) And to offer another wild idea a bit more from the left field - perhaps only characters having win-rates between, say, 30%-70% could be crowned as champions. That could certainly help with decreasing the focus and pressure on strong win-rates (and perhaps make the title scene a helluva lot more unpredictable and interesting too).

---

As for events and moderation, I vaguely recall some thread from a few years back, where Winner sought to fulfill quite a few roles for different purposes in LAW, e.g. moderation, event organizing, new user acceptance and support etc. I found that to be a great idea, and still do, even though I'm not sure what actually happened back then. I would love to see broader shoulders for the event team, and also for supporting new users.

When it comes to Discord, I'm not really following other channels there, than a few LAW RP-related ones. But if there are some channels that are regularly a source of trouble or drama, are those really channels that we need on a LAW server then? I would empower any current (or past) Discord moderators to make decisions on potentially even shutting some of these down, if they can identify some that were giving them needless trouble.


Just my two cents for now!

[ThurmanMermanPlx]

Cause we focus on user retention and dont want to start conflicts so we just put up woth it tho that was a big reason why i left mod team, you can try your best but some people just get off to spiting on you.
Shit sucks but we can't just ban people left and right either, this would make a brand new issue

Most people just have no idea how it is on the other side

Totally understandable wanting to keep users around, but imo that's not worth allowing people to shit in your salad, either. There has to be a line, and it doesn't matter who crosses it - new user, popular user, active user - rules are there for a reason, and respecting people is part of the rules. Disagreeing with how things are handled is fine - but it is not an excuse for people to be dicks, either.

I suppose I should clarify: I wasn't suggesting to outright ban people who don't drop a topic when asked, but muting them for 24 hours is a totally valid option (I don't know if Discord itself has this functionality, but there are numerous moderation bots that offer it). It's also fair to give people warnings, too; have a escalating ladder system.

[ThurmanMermanPlx]

As a former mod I do have sympathy for them for what they go through because the way some people act with them is unacceptable. But even with them I have limits, I had a complaint that I brought up in the rants about how I was needlessly cussed out in sportsball by someone I've never interacted with, so they have no reason to be asking to me like that's okay, were not buddies and that's rude as well. A mod heard my complaint (I'm not naming names they know who they are and I don't want them catching shit for it because we've talked about it already) and came to me, only to kinda tell me their was nothing they could do because it was awhile before they knew about it...That's just not really acceptable imo even as a former mod. You could warn them to not do that in the future, even in private if you think it would be weird to bring it up in public now but just saying 'oh it was awhile ago, nothing to do' isn't going to make me want to go to you about anything else in the future...because that leads into my other point. It's pretty clear the mods try not to be too hard on people for the sake of not making users leave, I've literally seen it a hundred times where a user causes a problem or needlessly insults someone and only when someone says something back does the mod step in and tell everyone to calm down, only one person was causing problems only one person needs to calm down. As for user retention I'll say this...you lose users when they feel ignored as well. And if you tolerate bad eggs who blow up and never seem to get properly punished or addressed, they feel ignored. Anyone who might leave because the mods did their job and told them to behave, frankly isn't worth keeping. This is a hobby we shouldn't have to deal with someone who's being a problem when we're trying to have fun. Like I said this is just one issue with the mods I've mostly made friends with the mods of this site but I can't overlook some things that I just don't agree with.

This is a very good point here, all of it. User retention also is a concern when 'active' or 'veteran' users are getting away with treating people -including mods- like shit and getting away with it. No one wants to be in a community where other users are allowed to just shit all over anyone or any topic they like.

It's also unacceptable to be like 'I can't do anything because I only just saw it'. No. You go to that user and you say 'I only just saw this but be aware this will not be tolerated in the future.' If you let it go, you're leaving the door open for it to happen in the future, as well as silently telling the problem user they're free to treat people like shit and face no consequences. Tolerating bag eggs, as FD here put it, as just as if not more problematic than taking care of business as it arises.

[Monsy]

Secondly, the events. Since i'm there, i've seen 11 events. That's a lot and not a lot too in some viewpoint but that's not the debate I want to talk about, why is there no more small events like the Last Woman Standing tournament ? I remember also seen a big Royal Rumble made before I joined LAW, why there is no more stuff like that ? I also don't remember seeing a tournament made for a specific thing, like I dunno, young lionness ? Maybe i'm just asking too much by wanting more small events so more people can participate or build a story from this. (Still, big respect to all event coordinator, it really seems stressful and take a lot of time to manage events).

Although Malk already said my point, I'll likely repeat it in my journey to hopefully help this point. Firstly, the people who organized those events are gone. Things like the rumble or LWS are also hard to produce and prone to run overtime because completion depends on everyone -- so it takes a commitment that mostly certain veterans took up as passion projects. There would've been another small event in the summer before the user organizing it also left. Generally saying: there isn't many sources of events right now. And Malk is correct that there isn't really a secret sauce for them. It's logistics, trying to uphold fairness even when folks want things their way/preference, and a little ideation. More patience than creative acumen. I'd say the concept ideation is the easiest part. "Unga-bunga, colosseum cool. colosseum activate neuron." "unga-bunga, BIKINIS"

I'd be happy to make a post on LAW that gives a crash course on how to shape an event, then how to execute it step by step depending on what it is, to ruleset options, things to consider and what will be ahead of them. Maybe that can grease the wheels to help your concern for more people to start spawning new events. Also wanted to have more "divisional" events highlighting individual weight-classes, Young Lionness, Mixed, as FD mentioned missing a time window expecting an event. I only know snippets through the tubes about reigns and Coordinator plans are semi-fluid, and even if we have glimpses, we can't always give them the spotlight they're asking for. If holders wish to facilitate an event for themselves to celebrate their domain or execute a story point, then I'll happily help or even organize it for them. If anyone wants to execute anything else but doesn't feel comfortable organizing, then I'll be happy to facilitate that as well. I can see about bringing back LWS and possibly another Rumble. My third suggestion is to make an idea box for people to submit serious event ideas to be considered for anyone wanting to nab an idea or for staff in future ""official"" events. If not enough events can spawn from this help, then I'm not sure what will.

I don't think there's much to do about veterans RPing together and I feel any policy to manage or govern win-rates will either be very hard to watch/track, step on people's personal booking/story tastes and make booking a more stressful aspect that historically made more stress than good. People should do what they want, solely, with their limited time here. That time might suddenly cut short or bleed away before they executed their selfish story/match goal. And I fear that titles more beholden to community taste are bound to leave bad residue that perpetuates their stressful rep. I think it's good we're now pushing a less competitive atmosphere, but I also feel any policy to mitigate anyone who still does think of LAW in competitive lights would be swiss cheese. So long as they still lose to drop a theoretical belt under the time limit, then go 100-1 for all that matters. Or 1-100.

Hopefully LAW finds its upward trend again and everyone finds their section of fun still. I think most of these issues are lessons, non-malicious/unfortunate circumstances while other things are fixing -- but now requires some time. I definitely have felt the same as FD regarding moderation with my own experiences. But I do double agree that decisions are often trolley problems.

the trolley in question

[ThatPolishDude]

Totally understandable wanting to keep users around, but imo that's not worth allowing people to shit in your salad, either. There has to be a line, and it doesn't matter who crosses it - new user, popular user, active user - rules are there for a reason, and respecting people is part of the rules. Disagreeing with how things are handled is fine - but it is not an excuse for people to be dicks, either.

I suppose I should clarify: I wasn't suggesting to outright ban people who don't drop a topic when asked, but muting them for 24 hours is a totally valid option (I don't know if Discord itself has this functionality, but there are numerous moderation bots that offer it). It's also fair to give people warnings, too; have a escalating ladder system.

Benefit of hindsight is that i moderation should be harsher. I know why leaniancy was preffered, i was not around on law for it but suposedly there was problem with ovezelous moderation in the past.

But how we did things was an overcorection in the other direction and that is no solution either. I might have been the most liberal in my usage of muting people tho can't be sure. Still, a lot of users that give mods shit are users that are popular and bringing them in line has led to their friends jumping on the case even when the kept out till that point.

It led to moderation feeling like you can't win, you act, you get shat on, you try to play it safe, you get shat on too. It left me dreading comming into discord cause i knew something would get tossed even when I tried to engage the comunity with banter and joking around in general. That honestly is why i avoid discord even now, it is just not fun when you are not part of the friend circle that hangs in there most.

And to be clear, i know i fucked up at points as a mod. It will happen, can't always make the right call and i also trusted my calls less and less. Wish i did better, but i must also say, i do not miss moding for law, i was misserable. Best i hope is that i did more good than bad but it's not for me to judge.

[APlaying]

I'm glad you're passionate about LAW and its future, BG. I agree with you about the lack of interaction between veterans and new users; it's as if we're trapped in a bubble that we can't afford to leave.

I've noticed that too: new users only play roles among themselves and don't get involved in stories, which could give them more opportunities when it comes to creating narratives. It's as if they weren't even part of the community.

And don't even get me started on inactive users, especially those with belts; it basically feels like they're preventing us from moving forward. And I don't want to name names, because I've done that several times and no one takes it well. I suspect it's because of the language barrier, which I've always had problems with, or because friendship blinds some people to reason.

Speaking of language barriers, in general, when it comes to the forum, despite the lack of options, I've had a lot of fun with some users I've interacted with a lot, and they've even helped me cope with really complicated situations in my life.

I can't say the same about the LAW server, as there have been situations where I've even lost role-playing partners because of the drama that can arise there. This is something I often explain when someone asks me about it, but the fact is that I haven't felt at all comfortable interacting with the people on the server. They come across as extremely hypocritical and, on occasion, have made me feel ashamed.

That's why every time I see someone new, I always advise them to stick to the forum and communicate directly with users. The server environment is allergic to conflict, and they don't tolerate cultural differences very well.

I stay on the forum simply because there are people I really enjoy making threads with, but I'm not going to lie, there are people who are just slackers, who seem to like to stall things instead of moving forward.

I'm sorry if what I said sounds offensive, but that's how things are as I've experienced them, and it really disgusts me.

[Ichi]

[Y]ou lose users when they feel ignored as well. And if you tolerate bad eggs who blow up and never seem to get properly punished or addressed, they feel ignored.

I know the perception that bad eggs have been tolerated by the moderation team has been an issue in the past. There have been instances where there have been a ton of complaints about users and nothing substantive had been done about said users. Thankfully, I think this is much less of a problem now—at least, that's my current perception. I feel like the current LAW Discord moderators (and Polish) have been good with not letting themselves be perceived as tolerating bad eggs.

But, speaking vaguely to avoid publicly dredging up stuff, problems have arisen in the past from people feeling as if their concerns/complaints regarding certain users were not listened to or addressed. It's led to and/or contributed to some pretty poor outcomes—think public conflict, damaged trust, and at least one abjectly immolated interpersonal relationship. Moreover, lack of listening and/or addressing has led to at least two toxic (former) users remaining in the LAW Discord server for longer than what would have been prudent.

Although, I do get that it's a tough balancing act to balance responsiveness and leniency. It's probably inevitable that someone will think that moderation action was taken too quickly or too hastily. Moreover, I also get that it can be hard to ensure that people raising complaints leave feeling like they were listened to. But, difficulty does not give one carte blanche to not try.